Cassie Kellner [00:00:06]:
Welcome to The Bloom Effect. I'm your host, Cassie Kellner, former chairside assistant turned team coach and founder of Everbloom. This podcast is all about the real stuff. Honest combos, leadership lessons, and the heart behind thriving orthodontic teams. If you're ready to grow, lead and bloom, let's dive in. Welcome to the Bloom Effect. I am your host, Cassie Kellner, and this episode is for all of the clinical leads out there. I am so excited. Kristin Lennarson, welcome to The Bloom Effect.
Kristin Lennarson [00:00:45]:
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
Cassie Kellner [00:00:49]:
I posted something on Instagram I don't even know. It's all a blur recently, and it was really about, like, being lonely in leadership. I also did a podcast about this recently, but you like that Instagram post. People were, like, commenting even from different industries, and you were like, yes.
Kristin Lennarson [00:01:11]:
You know, I remember I was sitting on my couch and I saw that. I was like, oh, my gosh.
Cassie Kellner [00:01:16]:
Yes, yes. You were like. You wrote a comment, you're like, oh, my gosh, Yes, I relate to this, all the things. And so I'm super excited to dive into this with you today. And I think that all the clinical leads in the orthodontic industry are in for an absolute treat. But first, let's get started. As you know. Who is Kristin?
Kristin Lennarson [00:01:44]:
Yeah, so my name is Kristin Lennarson. I've been in the orthodontic world, oh, my gosh, for almost 10 years now, which is so crazy to say, because sometimes it feels like it's been just yesterday, and then sometimes it feels like 20 plus years, as I know, like, you know, time flies when you're having fun. So it's just. It's so fun to kind of see where I started. And, yeah, so I started back in 2016. And a little funny backstory as to how I got into ortho is I actually was a hair stylist prior for seven years, which a lot of people know. No, so it's like a fun little fact that, like, unless somebody, like, asks or somehow we get on the topic, I'll throw them there. Like, wait, how. How did you get into ortho? I'm like, well, actually, so I always like sharing that with people. And at the time, I was in, like, my early 20s. You know, I just. I was going through so many different life changes. I was going through, like, a major breakup at the time. So I was really just kind of figuring my life out, I guess you could say. And, you know, you get through, like, those rebel phases. I Always, you know, touch base on like, you want to like, oh yeah, your haircut. Do all these. Yeah, well, we didn't do that, thank God. But I had a point where I'm like, I did those. I'm not satisfied. So let's change my career. So. So I always, I always had an interest in dental hygiene, but at that time I just knew going back to school wasn't in the cards for me.
Cassie Kellner [00:03:05]:
I didn't want to do it.
Kristin Lennarson [00:03:06]:
There's no way. So I went on indeed. And I just looked to see what offices were looking for, with experience, things of that nature. And I came across this orthodontic office where, where they were hiring for a clinical assistant. You didn't have to have any experience. They would train you. I'm like, oh, well, this sounds actually great. And I was never really familiar with ortho. I never had braces as a kid or a teenager. So I'm like, well, let's just see what comes of it. So I submitted my application, they called me and I went in for an interview. And I remember sitting in that waiting room filling out like the pre work and it was asking me questions like, do you have experience with Invisalign braces? You know, Herbst appliances carry all these things. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm working everything now. What am I doing here? And I'm not even kidding, for a split second I looked at the door and I was about to get up and walk out, but then they called me back. I'm like, well, right here. Yeah, exactly. So I went through the interview process and they actually, actually ended up offering me the job, which was so exciting. And from there I started off as a chairside assistant. I did that for a couple of years and then I eventually transitioned into being more behind the scene in the lab. So I was the head lab tech and then my last couple of years I was the clinical lead. So I was in every different type of clinical role I think you can think of within the office. So this is.
Cassie Kellner [00:04:25]:
Wait, I need to go back. Go back. I don't know if you know this, but when I lecture, I, I have a slide. When I'm talking about like onboarding and bringing team members on, I have a slide. I don't know if you've seen this, where the bottom, look at the top half is orthodontic instruments and the bottom half of the slide is hair styling tools. And the. Have you seen the example that I use is you can be a hair stylist. Today and an orthodontic assistant the next day. And you are literally it, Kristin.
Kristin Lennarson [00:05:05]:
Well, I mean, I think about it. I mean, aside from the teeth part of it and the hair part of it, I mean, I really think both roles were so similar for me. I mean, you're in the customer service industry. You know, you're. You're making people feel better about themselves. I mean, they really go hand in hand when you really think about it. So it's. It's. I've always said that, like, when I've got into it, I think that's probably what struck my interest. If I didn't actually want to be doing here. Like, that's why I think, you know, dental hygiene or ortho, something of that nature was gonna be my next step.
Cassie Kellner [00:05:33]:
Because it's processes and systems. Except, listen, you went from styling hair to now learning teeth numbers. Like, that's a totally different animal. Of course you wanted to walk out if you're like, what's a herps? How do I even say this word?
Kristin Lennarson [00:05:49]:
Right. Right. Exactly.
Cassie Kellner [00:05:51]:
Oh, my gosh. I. I love this so much. I had no idea.
Kristin Lennarson [00:05:57]:
Yeah, it's. I always like telling people because I feel like I get the same reaction as you are right now, too. And it's kind of fun, honestly. It's like a different. A different, like, side of me that no one really ever knew.
Cassie Kellner [00:06:06]:
Oh, my gosh. Okay, so then now you're in for, you know, almost 10 years, and you're just like a tooth nerd like me, which I love. So let's, like, dive into just the assistant role as. As a whole. Right. But really, when we had a conversation, you mentioned that on this team that you were on, there was no clinical lead, and you guys were doing okay. You had one. They weren't there anymore. And then you were like, oh, you know what? We can do this. And then you realized that a clinical lead would actually make this a lot easier and smoother. Talk about the importance of that role and, like, why you felt having a role as a clinical lead, role in a practice was so important.
Kristin Lennarson [00:07:01]:
Yeah, so when I started, we did have a clinical lead, but she ended up leaving a couple years of me being in there. So at the time, we were just like, okay, well, we can just get by with just a practice manager. We really don't. We don't need somebody from the clinic because everyone can just go to the practice manager for everything. But as time went on, our practice was growing. We moved into a bigger space. So that means more staff, more patients. Just more everything. And it just got to a point where we're like, no, we need a clinical lead just for the flow of everything. And it's funny because when I was in the lab, there were often times where I was finding that people were coming to me with questions about clinical things and just questions, questions about, you know, the doctor, you know, telling them what to do. Like, you know, should I be doing it this way? Should I not? So I already felt like I was kind of in that role because I, at the time I was one of, one of the assistants who was there the longest. So I feel like I was already kind of taking that on. So when I was back there just making retainers one day, I remember my practice manager, she walks back there and she's like, well, you know, we talked about wanting to do a clinical lead, you know, and our doctor, her name's Dr. Carrie Thangamani, which love her dream. She's the best. She's the best. When she told me that, you know, Dr. Carrie was really wanting me to step into that role, I was a little taken back. I was like, okay, I know we've talked about this, but me, I'm like, I. It was like, I was, it was, it's an honor. I'm like, thank you. Like, that's like such a great thing to hear, especially from her and like, from you. But for me, I just, you know, I never thought being in a leadership role would have been like something that I would want to do. It was just never a thought in my mind. But the more I kept thinking about it, like, again, I was kind of already doing that stuff already. I'm like, well, you know, if I can step away from the lab side of it and just put my full attention and being a lead, I think that's just going to make it so much easier for these clinical girls. Because I. Any practice, I feel like, needs to have that clinical lead no matter what I think, either small or big. It's just, it's such a great dynamic for every team and you know, especially like, just for your clinical team, like the girls, you know, as you know too, it, sometimes it can be, you know, it can be a little nerve wracking. Like if you're in a situation, you don't want to go and ask the doctor because she's at a chair with another patient. You know, you're, you're afraid that they're, they're going to get upset or maybe just, you know, mad at you, which they're not. But you don't want to Disrupt, like, we really just wanted to have that person who can just be there for the clinical girls and just give them advice. And, you know, my biggest thing for them, too is just, you know, just. I don't want to say try and shape them, but like, we. We as assistants, we doubt ourselves. Right. Depending on the appointment, it the easiest appointment, it could be the longest appointment. You just. It's an appointment you feel like you're never going to finish. But I feel like just being there for them to come to me for any questions and I can help guide them. It gave them that confidence too, which I think is like the number one thing that you need for your clinical team to succeed.
Cassie Kellner [00:09:43]:
Honest. There's so much independence in orthodontics than there is in any other dental industry that you do need the person. And while I do feel that perhaps for the time that you guys didn't have a clinical lead, that your office manager was doing a great job, they're still not in the clinical position. And so I find that it's really hard for them to truly answer questions. And it. And the reality is it then falls on the orthodontist because the orthodontist becomes organically becomes the clinical lead if there is not a person in the position.
Kristin Lennarson [00:10:25]:
Right, right. And I think that's definitely something that we were coming across at that time, without a doubt, you know, and I think, you know, again, we were such a busy practice and our doctor's time was just so valuable, and we wanted to make sure that she got to every chair she was with every patient. We're not having to drag her back to a chair for a question, you know, and going back to the practice manager, like, I mean, a lot. Some practice managers, they were clinical assistant, some weren't. So if you have a practice manager that doesn't really know the clinical side and like the nitty gritty, that's okay, though. But that's. That's why I definitely think that you would totally benefit from just having that clinical lead because. And sometimes you can think about it, it could be not a big deal, but, like, it makes a big deal. I feel like, in so many different ways, without a doubt, huge.
Cassie Kellner [00:11:08]:
And it's funny that you say this because I talk about this often. Oftentimes people who get put in clinical leadership positions are already kind of organically doing this on their own, and then they get put into this position. So it probably wasn't a huge shock to you. Maybe, maybe the initial shock of like, oh, okay, like, this is going to be the stepping stone when this really, I've been in the lab now, really enjoying this, creating the systems from a lab perspective. But now I'm getting put into a leadership position. And it's funny, Kristin, to hear you say that you were shocked. And if I probably had the conversation with the doctor and the office manager, to them it was like, why would you be shocked? You're already kind of doing this already. That happens often where they're like, hey, you're all, you've already taken on this leadership role without it actually being your title or position. We'd love to give it to you and give you more growth in the practice. But then there's something that happens when you become the, the clinical lead and you elevate into this position from being a one of the team members to then going into the leadership role. There's this kind of quote unquote moment where you are one of the, the people, you're at the lunch table, you're having the funny conversations, you're going to happy hour, you make friends, listen. These are big, massive teams and they become incredibly close, as they should, right? I mean, and then all of a sudden you may have to have uncomfortable conversations and from them and have a one on one and a growth plan or a performance review, depending on what the practice is doing. How did you manage that? Like being likable, being one of the, one of the girls who's like, yeah, I'll go have margaritas to then having to have conversations. How did you balance the leadership?
Kristin Lennarson [00:13:28]:
Well? And it's, it's funny that you say it like that too because even though I felt like I was already doing those things, but like the second that I was given that title, I just, it's complete, like mind, like you're like, whoa, like, okay, we really, we really are changing things up here a little bit. And like for me, I just told myself I had. First of all, I had to think about it for a day or three. I couldn't just say yes right away and just roll. I had to like, I just need some time just to make sure. Because I won't lie, the number one thing that came to my mind when they asked me about it was I just want everybody to like me. And I've been like that my entire life for as long as I can remember outside of work, I've just always wanted to be that person that everybody liked. I never wanted to give someone a reason to have a problem with me or an issue. And I will say though, obviously, you know, getting Older, I. It's okay, though. No one's always going to agree with you and, or what you say or what you do, but that's okay. That's life and work and then your private life, like, that's just how it is. And, you know, I think for me, I really just needed to make sure that, like, I couldn't obsess over that I want to be liked feeling. Because at the end of the day, I knew when I stepped into that role, I still was being true to myself and I was still being true to everybody. And in my office admin clinic, like, I was not going to change my Persona. You know, some people may step into a leadership or management role and just feel like they have to crack the whip. They have to be this very hard, stern person, which, yes, I know there are certain situations where you have to kind of be more firm on things, but I just wanted to be myself still and let everybody know that, you know, just because I am in a, I guess you could say higher up role than you now, this is who I am as a person. And that's never going to change for myself or for you guys. So I think just making sure I said like, that precedent right away, I think just really helped me. Not right away, but with time I was able to guide myself through those hard times of that feeling of just. Do they like me still? Honestly?
Cassie Kellner [00:15:21]:
Yeah. You know, I think it's really interesting that you, that you say that because some people get into these positions and it becomes like this power and they, they do feel like they need to crack the whip. When you got into the leadership role, you were like, listen, I'm here as a place of support as opposed of a place of power. And so how, I guess, did you have a conversation with your team, like, or did it just organically happen and were they accepting to it? We've never really talked about that.
Kristin Lennarson [00:16:01]:
Yeah, I, I will say though, I, I am very thankful for, you know, just our entire team, both admin and clinical. I feel like we had such great people. I mean, we truly, which is something, you know, that's really rare to say. We really didn't have much drama, which I'm so thankful for. And I already feel like I got along with all of my clinical staff very well. Like you had mentioned, though, you obviously have your little groups of friends that you're a little bit closer with. So I feel like it honestly just came organically. And I, I also think by again, stepping into this role and just not changing the way that I am and just really being who I know that I am, especially the way that the girls know me. When I was in a clinical assistant role, even in lab, I feel like they instantly were able to give me that respect. And I. Something that I can say that I'm very grateful for. I feel like I really didn't have to try and, like, pry it out of them or have a conversation. And even in my head, I just, when I stepped into them, like, see how this goes. And honestly, it ended up. It ended up shaping out pretty well for me, you know, And I. And I, I, I just, I couldn't be more thankful for that, because when you have a good staff and a good team, I just, that's. That's what makes it that much better, honestly.
Cassie Kellner [00:17:12]:
Absolutely. How did you. How did you navigate and did things shift for you where you were like, oh, we're going happy hour, and now I have to have an uncomfortable conversation. Like, how. Especially if admittedly you're like, I. It's important for me for people to like me. I don't want to ruffle any feathers. And when you go into a leadership role, you sometimes have to compartmentalize that. You have to say, like, listen, I have to have this uncomfortable conversation, even if I don't want to, because you're like my people. However, we have to do this for the better of the practice. Did you have to have those conversations? And what would you say to people that are kind of in the same position as you?
Kristin Lennarson [00:18:00]:
Yeah, and, yeah, I mean, I did. I had to have them with people who were my closer friends. And then I had to have with the other clinical staff, too, as well. And like, in my head, sometimes you would think, okay, especially if you're talking to somebody who you were a little bit closer with, this is going to be easier, but, oh, no, honestly, not always the case. It's harder. Right. You have to put on this, like, I don't want to say put on this face, because I don't want to make it seem like I'm not being fake or anything, but you have to shift your mindset.
Cassie Kellner [00:18:26]:
Yes.
Kristin Lennarson [00:18:27]:
You do, you do. Because. And even for them, even all the other clinical staff too, as well, like in my head, too, when I had these tough conversations, whether it was a conversation that doctor wanted me to have with them, or even if it's something that I wanted to bring their attention before it got to the doctor to help, you know, it's essentially just to help them. And I always made sure that I told them at the end of every conversation, you know, some conversations were easier for others, but I always let them know, you know, I don't want you to feel like I'm attacking you or telling you that you're doing something wrong. And this is not how you should be doing it. I'm doing it because I want to help you. So that way you feel better. That way you feel better in situations where you're finding, you know, you're second guessing a call that you made wasn't ending up being right. But the way I look at it and the way I would tell them is what you did, it's not wrong. Because even if you make a mistake or we're doing something that we shouldn't be doing without knowing you're learning from it, and that's how I would word it to them, you have to, you have to let them know you're not just being this person, like, you're doing this wrong, this wrong. Like, you just, you have to. I go in there with open arms and I let them know, like, this is, this is how I want to talk about it. And I want you to know that it's just, it's a learning experience. That's how, that's how we grow. And it's going to make everybody's lives easier too. And it's not just you, you know, and that's the thing, too. I never want anybody to feel like I'm pinpointing out certain people. Like, that's not the case at all. But you know, that that's the hardest part are those tough conversations, especially when.
Cassie Kellner [00:19:51]:
You go from being such a close team to then having to have these uncomfortable conversations and sitting across from your people and going like, okay, we have to have this conversation. I have found, just in my clinical leadership experience too, when I use myself as an example, I feel that when, when leaders in general, but I'm going to speak specifically to clinical leads put themselves on this, kind of even accidentally put themselves on this pedestal where they're like, you made this decision and we're going to need to talk through this. And they don't use themselves as either an example or an example that has maybe happened in their career prior. You become more human when you do things like that, like, listen.
Kristin Lennarson [00:20:41]:
And I'm so, so happy that you brought that up because that was one thing that I, I would always try and let them know too, is like, you know, if it was like a similar situation that I found myself in, which we've, we've all been in so many different situations. Like I said, with all these different appointments and patients, like we have bound to have crossed the same path and experienced the same thing. So I, I did tell them that, you know, I, this, this is what I've struggled with in the past. You know, it's, sometimes you can change it right away or sometimes it just takes time. But again, like you had mentioned, just reassuring them that, you know, I made mistakes in the past. We're human. You know, it's, I think too when.
Cassie Kellner [00:21:19]:
You, you come up from a place of support as opposed to a place of power, those are two very different things. Your tone, your energy, the way you're delivering these messages. Because here's the thing, at the end of the day, your clinical team is seeing, it could be seeing anywhere from 60 to 120 patients a day, depending on the size of your practice. And if you are only sitting down with your clinical team as a lead and talking about the negative, it is not going to go over well.
Kristin Lennarson [00:21:56]:
No. And you almost get this feeling that like, it's like they're, then they're just annoyed with you almost. You're not trying to have it be that way. But like there are situations like even like, you know, and we would have like our own clinical huddle in the morning. So usually we would do a full team huddle. Clinic and admin would debrief, go on their own sides. I would run the clinical huddle and go over things and like, there were some things at times that I would bring up more often than others. And like, you just get that sense sometimes. Like, gosh, I just, I don't want this to come off. I don't want to know you guys. But, you know, it's just something we have to touch base on again. So that's what too is like, you don't want it to come across as that either. You know, there's so many different scenarios and ways that you can come up, but you don't need for it to.
Cassie Kellner [00:22:38]:
Come off that way. And at the end of the day, this directly correlates like in one big circle, Kristin, of like being liked. Sometimes you have to bring these things up. Maybe something wild happened in your clinic and you're like, listen, we do have to talk about what happened in chair four yesterday. And you know, you read the room, you know, if people have kind of decompressed from whatever has happened in chair four, you, you know this. But you do have to have these conversations and keep people accountable and that means you have to, you have to remove the being likable in these situations. That is very difficult to do. It is a massive mindset shift. And some people will never get there. No, they never will. And. And it's okay for some people to go, you know what? I thought I wanted to do this, and I thought this was going to be the trajectory of my career. However, I think I'm better as a clinical assistant as opposed to being a leader because this, this desk actually doesn't feel good to me or the practice. That is very difficult to do. It has happened plenty of times. I've seen it as a coach and a consultant. And the other piece to this that I have seen that I really want to get out there to people. And I don't know if you've seen this, Kristin, but this is a big one where you have a clinical lead and the director of operations manager, orthodontist, whoever is in that role. Maybe it's all three go, oh, my gosh, we made a horrible decision here. We thought this person was going to be good in the leadership role. However, the only reason we put them in that leadership role was because of seniority. We didn't. They. They weren't actually an organic or, you know, leadership is a muscle. Like Simon Sinek talks about it all time. You. You grow into this, this. Some people have it innately, and it just comes out in them, like you, where they're like, yeah, you're organically already doing this. Or they're like, oh, we need to put somebody in this position. I choose you. You've been here for 14 years. However, the person over here that's been here for seven years might be better in that role. So I'm here to tell people it's not all. It doesn't always work out based on seniority.
Kristin Lennarson [00:25:22]:
Right. And I think I'm. I'm so happy you said that, too, because I feel like a lot of the times that's just what you instantly think of, right? The clinical assistant who's been here the longest, clinical lead. But it's one of those things, too, where, like, you had said, what if that person just really, truly doesn't want to do it? Because then who would you choose? When you think about it, right, it's like, then you kind of feel like you're just going down the line if you're trying to get somebody, you know, internally from the team. And, you know, even for me, like, even though I felt a little hesitant about was just one of those things where I had to just really, again, think about it, like, I don't know if I want to do this, but I want to because I think obviously it's going to help me grow more. But I also kept in my mind when stepping into that, I knew that if at any point I truly did not feel like this was a good fit for me, I had to make sure that I spoke about it with my doctor, practice manager. Just being upfront and honest, because I feel like when you find yourself in a mindset, when you're really struggling, especially when you feel like it's almost just being forced out of you, you're gonna feel way worse in that role than you think you would. Honestly. And even for me, I don't want to say I ever had the thought of stepping down from being in that leadership role, but I definitely had doubts a lot. A lot. And I always just had to make sure that I had to check in with myself. You know, we all have good and bad days. That's inevitable. But also to being in leadership, you kind of have to step into that office with a different face or the same face, essentially. You know, I think in my head, if I used to have a bad day as, like, even in the lab, I met back in the lab by myself, you know, whatever I'm dealing with, like, it's fine, someone can come talk to me. But like in a clinical role, like, lead role, you're talking to patients, you're talking to parents, you're calling doctor's offices, you're talking your clinical staff. Like, you always. You have to have that happy face on all the time too. Which that's not easy either. It's not.
Cassie Kellner [00:27:11]:
It's not. And depending on, you know, some people will be in a clinical lead role. They're still seeing a chair full of patients. Some people don't. Like, there's different, there's different types of clinical leads too. Like, I. There's not a cookie cutter clinical lead, in my opinion, from doing, you know, I was clinical consulting for eight years. Like, it is very different based on different practices. If you have a very large practice, perhaps you've taken that person out and they also become the trainer. Like, or you have a clinical lead and you have a trainer, or you have a training team where people go, hey, you're really good at bonding. Like, I'm going to have you train this, or you're really good at attachments and aligners. I'm going to have you go here and learn from this person. Like, I feel like people get boxed into this stuff and I think that you can make this position whatever you want in your practice.
Kristin Lennarson [00:28:11]:
You can. You definitely can. And that comes from it. As long as, like I always say you have to just be upfront and honest about your feelings on certain situations. And even like the earlier stages, like there were times where I would be nervous to go approach Dr. About like my feelings on things, but I'm like, but I have to, I have to do it because, you know, the dynamic at certain times, we had to change it. I mean, there were times when I stepped into the role, like, not only was I, you know, clinical lead, but I was doing a lot of follow ups for the doctors. I was doing a lot of behind the scene work, a lot of reports that I had to pull, but also at the same time, like, I was essentially having to train like somebody new in the clinic, which it was so hard to balance. But so that's when I started to get to a situation where I'm like, okay, we need to talk about this. We need to possibly change the dynamic, which is okay. I mean, like you said, every office is different. And you know, our office, I mean, we were, we were very, very busy office. So we all day, from the minute we open to we close, constant patient flow, which is great. But for me, you know, that means a lot of, again, follow ups with parents, patients, doctor's offices and trying to manage it. So we shifted our direction with, you know, having one of the clinical assistants be essentially like a trainer. And we found great success with that, you know, because they were in the clinic all the time. I couldn't always be in the clinic because again, I was either on the phone or I was in the waiting room, you know, updating a parent on their, you know, child's treatment, you know, things of that nature. So I always felt like I couldn't always be present for them, which made it hard. So changing that dynamic, to have it fit for your practice, to help it make sense, that's, that's what makes it so successful. And I'm so glad you said that because every practice is different. I do feel like we just kind of paint this picture of how it should be, but it's, that's not always the case. You have to find what's best for you.
Cassie Kellner [00:29:56]:
And I think that, you know, I've talked about this many times, even on this podcast where people are looking and they want guidance from other practices and they're maybe observing or they're paying attention to what's going on on their socials or they're in someone's newsletter or, you know, whatever the case may be. And they're like, oh, that's going to work for us. But I would encourage everyone to really take all the things in and then make it your own.
Kristin Lennarson [00:30:27]:
Yeah. Honestly. And especially because it wasn't like I was transitioning from the person who was there before me. Like, again, we want a good amount of time without even having a clinical lead. So I really feel like we were starting just from the bottom and had to build this whole new system, which was, when I look back at it, was so different from us previously. But it's. It that. That made it a little bit different, I should say, because you're not just having someone train you in this world. Like, you really have to shape it yourself, you know, and. But there's a lot of positives that come out of that, too.
Cassie Kellner [00:30:58]:
The one thing, too, that I've seen and that I'm just. I've seen so many times and I, I want to bring this to light is when you put somebody in a role based on seniority and you're like, this is going to work out, and then it doesn't work out, and then you're not really sure what to do, and you don't want to have an uncomfortable, uncomfortable conversation. So then you go and you add another lead. And so then they'll have two leads, and they're like, okay, well, this person will do this and this person who do that. And then I've seen a practice add a third lead. And we're, we're, we're just right. Because, like, this dynamic of these two isn't working out. So maybe we'll add a third one on top of that, and then they'll have like an entire team of leaders. However, this team had three clinical leads and only six, seven clinical assistants. So you have almost the same amount of leads as you do assistants. Because we could not have uncomfortable conversations. That some of these people just weren't ready to be in that leadership role. And either they couldn't admit it, or the team couldn't admit it, or the doctor couldn't admit it and have the uncomfortable conversation. So what I will say is don't pile on. Don't pile on and add more. Have the conversations. Have the uncomfortable conversations. It is so incredibly important that I cannot stress it enough. And no one wants to do this because you're not alone in this, Kristin. We want to be liked. We are humans. People don't wake up in the morning, they're like, yes, I can't wait for this person to hate me. You know, like.
Kristin Lennarson [00:32:43]:
If I met somebody I'd be like, tell me your ways. How did you get there?
Cassie Kellner [00:32:47]:
That's not. This is not what, like the human. The. The average human is not waking up and doing that. So it's difficult to have uncomfortable conversations. But I am telling people right now, listening to this, do it.
Kristin Lennarson [00:33:02]:
Yeah. And it's so funny because even by you bringing up I've. I've truly never heard of a practice that had more than one clinical lead in my head, I would almost rather have those difficult conversations myself. If it's not easy at first, you learn how to have that with time. Because I feel like it's almost going to create more stress and confusion for your team because then also some of the girls may favor going to one lead versus another. And then it could create. I don't want to say more issues then favoritism.
Cassie Kellner [00:33:38]:
It is inevitable. It is like creating a messy divorce parent. And then you're like, oh, well, I'll just chat with mom, because mom will do this. Oh, I'll just chat with dad because dad will do this. And then. And then what? And then where do we go? And then. Okay, now we've gone into gossip and drama and culture and toxicity and it have the uncomfortable conversation as a lead, as a doctor. And I want people out there to know as well, if this clinical leadership thing was not all it was cut out to be for you and you thought it was going to be something else, that's okay. Because.
Kristin Lennarson [00:34:17]:
Yes. Yeah. So hard on ourselves when it comes.
Cassie Kellner [00:34:20]:
There is nothing wrong with saying, I don't think that this was for me. I'm gonna go step into this role now. Like, this is going to be my shift. I, you know, I, I hope that people would feel empowered to do that. I know it's easier said than done because it does feel like some sort of demotion. However, sometimes it's better to step away than to force it or to layer upon it with other leaders.
Kristin Lennarson [00:34:54]:
Right, Exactly. And I, I totally agree. And you know, even with the hard conversations too, like, you know, if I truly felt like there was a situation that I had to talk about to one of the clinical girls about, and I was just having a really hard time navigating it, honestly, that's when I would. And I encourage other clinical leads to the same thing. Lean on your practice manager. I went to her for advice. You know, she. I had two different office managers. Our one office manager was there, and then we had our new one step in which at the time was obviously Kayla. So we worked very close together. So you Know, I had these relationships with them, but, you know, since they were already in this leadership role prior to me, essentially, like, I. I felt comfortable going for their advice and how they would typically navigate it, sometimes even a conversation, if they, you know, felt like they would let me know, you know, if you want me to be in the conversation with you, like, I'm more than happy to do that. So sometimes I would have her, you know, be in there just to help guide me with it. And I really feel like I was able to gain experience from that, too. So it's okay to lean on your practice manager. I know in general, they already have so many other things to be worrying about, but, you know, I just. I found myself in situations where, like, that really was so helpful for me, and it also helped me feel like I really wasn't alone.
Cassie Kellner [00:36:05]:
Yes. Because at the end of the day, leadership can be very lonely. And so if you can pull in internal support from your team, that you have a leadership team where you can sit down and go, okay, so this happened, and I need someone to help me navigate through this. It's monumental. It shifts everything for you because you get to have this conversation, you get to talk it through, and then you get to execute on whatever it is that you've made this decision on. So, you know, being able to lean on that. And. And for people who don't have that and maybe have the. The doctor, the clinical lead, and maybe don't have a practice manager or they do have a practice manager, I would encourage people to meet, to meet and be able to have conversations and do leadership meetings with one another so that you can talk about the things that are happening in each one of your departments so then you can come out stronger and less alone.
Kristin Lennarson [00:37:07]:
Right, exactly. And I mean, and we would. We would do our leadership meetings maybe like every month or two, I would say just to touch base on everything, too, as well, you know, and again, you'd bring up certain situations, and again, like, you do have a support system still, even though, again, you feel like you're by yourself or you feel like you're isolated. And I, at times I would forget that. I really would. I know especially thing, because in my head, it's like, okay, I'm clinic lead. This is where I'm at. Doctors in her own world, seeing patients. I don't want to disrupt her practice manager. She's doing her own thing. And I always had that feeling like I don't want to bother anybody. But at the same time, in my head, it's not bothering when you're asking for help or support or how to navigate something, and I think your doctor will appreciate that more than not saying anything at all. And then all of a sudden, huge situation can happen or all these feelings that you've been keeping inside come out, and then it's just like, wait, where does this come. Yes. So that's like, my biggest thing.
Cassie Kellner [00:38:02]:
Yeah. It's been building up. It becomes an explosion. And now we have so many things to clean up.
Kristin Lennarson [00:38:09]:
Right, right. And you almost, like, throw off guard.
Cassie Kellner [00:38:12]:
Yes.
Kristin Lennarson [00:38:15]:
Yeah.
Cassie Kellner [00:38:15]:
Thank you so much. This has been so incredible from one clinical lead to the next. I truly appreciate your vulnerability and talking about being likable and how lonely this can be and really stepping up into this position when sometimes it gets thrown at you and. And I think the power of you saying, I had to really think about this, I didn't say yes right away. Is incredibly powerful. To be able to go home and go, okay, this is going to be a massive shift for me. And is this something I'm willing to take on and to continue that conversation with your team, your doctor, I think is such a beautiful thing. I can't thank you enough for sharing your story.
Kristin Lennarson [00:39:04]:
Of course. Thank you. And, you know, like I said, too, for anybody in the ortho office, you know, whether you're approached on being the clinical lead or it's something that you're thinking you want to do and present to your doctor, I mean, in general, you're taking a risk regardless whether you're prepared for it or not. And all I can say is, like, especially for myself, even stepping into it, I doubted myself a little bit, but. But if it wasn't for taking that risk, I really, truly, aside from learning from my doctors and the staff that I was with for eight years in that office, I really, truly wouldn't be where I'm at today. And I just feel like, honestly, we hear this a lot, so maybe a cliche saying, but, I mean, life is about taking risks, and you're just never. You're never going to know unless you try it. And like you had mentioned too, so many times, you know, and if it's not a good fit, that's okay. And my eyes, you're being true to yourself. You're being true to your team, your doctor. And that's. That's really what matters is at the.
Cassie Kellner [00:39:54]:
End of the day, 100%. Kristin, thank you.
Kristin Lennarson [00:40:00]:
Of course. Thank you.
Cassie Kellner [00:40:03]:
Thank you for joining me on The Bloom Effect, where we keep it real, keep it growing, and always keep it team first. If today's episode sparked something for you an idea, a shift, or just a reminder that you're not alone, take a second and share it with your team or a fellow ortho leader. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss a convo. And if you're loving the show, leave a review. It helps more practices find us and join the movement. And if you're ready to bring this kind of energy into your practice, visit DiscoverEverbloom.com to learn more about working together. Until next time, keep leading with heart, keep building with intention, and keep blooming right where you're planted.
