Cassie Kellner [00:00:01]:
Welcome to The Bloom Effect. I'm your host, Cassie Kellner, former chairside assistant turned team coach and founder of Everbloom. This podcast is all about the real stuff. Honest combos, leadership lessons, and the heart behind thriving orthodontic teams. If you're ready to grow, lead and bloom, let's dive in. Welcome to the Bloom Effect. I am your host, Cassie Kellner, and I am so excited for my guest, Christine Brondyke. Christine, welcome. Thank you so much for being here with me.
Christine Brondyke [00:00:39]:
Cassie, thank you so much. I'm so excited, too.
Cassie Kellner [00:00:42]:
So, Christine, I want to. Okay, so two things I want to ask you. Who is Christine Brondyke?
Christine Brondyke [00:00:51]:
The existential question right out of the box.
Cassie Kellner [00:00:55]:
We're getting heavy. We're getting. We're going into it.
Christine Brondyke [00:00:58]:
I love it. Let's go. Who is Christine Brondyke? So, personal life. I'm a married mom of three adult boys. Professionally, I've been a Certified Life and Relationship Coach for going on over 25 years now, so seems like a very long time. I started out doing just basic relationship work with individuals and couples who were mainly struggling in their marriages or partnerships. And then, gosh, it's probably going on seven years now that an orthodontist heard about me and said, I guess I need to bring you in.
Cassie Kellner [00:01:42]:
Do we want to give him a shout out? Because he's going to be on this pod, too.
Christine Brondyke [00:01:46]:
Is he? Yes. Dr. Ryan McComb is the most amazing. He was so quick to pick stuff up. He was so quick to embrace it, and his team still to this day is one of the most rock star teams I've ever had the pleasure of working with. And he's just not only a talented doctor, but a talented entrepreneur. So he's growing and he's building his teams, and they still use the stuff that we started seven years ago, so. And it grew from there. Yeah.
Cassie Kellner [00:02:18]:
I didn't realize it's been seven years.
Christine Brondyke [00:02:21]:
Yeah, it might even be eight because it was pre COVID by quite a bit.
Cassie Kellner [00:02:26]:
Wow.
Christine Brondyke [00:02:27]:
Yeah.
Cassie Kellner [00:02:28]:
I love this. I love this. I love this. So, Christine, you and I met working together at a consulting company, and we. During one of the meetings in this consulting group, you brought up this theory, Right.
Christine Brondyke [00:02:50]:
I think it was our very first group meeting.
Cassie Kellner [00:02:53]:
Yeah. Like, we had met, but then you brought this up, and at a roundtable discussion that we were having as a group of consultants, and you brought up this thing called the drama triangle. And I had, like, a mental and physical, like, total body reaction. I don't know if you Remember? I, I, it's very rare that I am silent or that I am, I was, I had like so many aha moments when you, and you do such a beautiful, I mean you're so good at what you do, but you did such a beautiful job at explaining the drama triangle that I'm pretty sure like I slammed both my hands on the table and I was like, what?
Christine Brondyke [00:03:39]:
It was sort of a big moment for a lot of people in that room. I mean it was. And thank you for the compliment. It is one of the most important tools. I pretty much share it everywhere I go, no matter who I'm speaking with. Even back in the day with my kids when they, they were in middle school, I said, can I please come in and share this? And you know, with the kids. But it was actually so much for the teachers as well. And yeah, it was in that particular meeting. I do remember your response. I remember sort of everybody's response and I remember being very deliberate in my offering of it. And this goes for anybody who, who I would share this with. It's probably the most effective and important tool for helping people understand if they have a glitch anywhere in their life, work, life, home life, friendship, life, wherever. If there's a glitch, this can help us understand the how of it. The how of it, which is very different from the why of it. And I think sometimes when as humans we're often looking for the why. Why am I so sad? Why is that not working? My mentors used to say the why always comes at the end. And for me, one time, it was 10 years later that I had this epiphany of understanding a why. But if we can understand the how, it comes quicker. And that's how I think. It creates those big light bulb moments of like, oh my God. And then once you see it, then it's like it's everywhere. It's everywhere in my whole world.
Cassie Kellner [00:05:23]:
Okay, so explain to our listeners.
Christine Brondyke [00:05:25]:
Yeah.
Cassie Kellner [00:05:26]:
What is the drama triangle?
Christine Brondyke [00:05:29]:
Okay, so the drama triangle is a 50 plus year old tool. So this is not my invention was created by a guy named Stephen Karpman. It is used now in a lot of coaching modalities, but wildly it was never really used very much in therapeutic realm. So therapists, counselors, psychologists might learn a little bit about this, but they often don't use it. And so it's often more picked up by coaches. And Cartman realized because he was studying relationships, that all drama, all conflict and ultimately all suffering, believe it or not, is explainable by Just three behaviors. So those three behaviors, when you draw lines together, make a triangle. And once we started sort of excavating the behaviors themselves, then there sort of became a natural unfolding of how to create a shift out of the triangle. So the triangle is a tool to understand how we create conflict accidentally. Nobody does it on purpose. Nobody gets up in the middle of the, you know, middle of the night or their morning routine, and they're like, you know, I think I just want to wreak havoc in my workplace today. Nobody. Nobody's. Nobody's intentional. But I think that's why it's such a great tool, is that it's like, okay, it's really easy to understand.
Cassie Kellner [00:07:08]:
Oh, yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:07:09]:
And once we can see it, we can see it everywhere. So, like, oh, my gosh, my boss is playing this role. And then that's what happens for me. I play this role, and then you go home, and you go, I play a different role at home, but there's my kid playing that role, and so it makes it really easy to see. And then the other thing, the feedback I've gotten consistently over the last 25 years when I've shared it is people will say, have you been spying on me in my living room? How do you know? And I'm like, well, it's only three behaviors, so it becomes very predictable. I don't have to guess too much, because if it's not one, it's one of the other two. And in that way, it's super relatable. So I don't think I've ever. Twice in my 25 years, I've taught the triangle and had two separate people say, I don't do any of those. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. One was the husband of a person I was working with in rehab. And he was like, yeah, I don't do any of that. And then he stood up, tripped as he was going out the door. He was so steaming mad because he'd actually had an insight that it did apply to him, but he was really struggling. And then he went to the next appointment with her and was, I guess, irate and screaming. And so, you know, totally on the triangle. But. And then I had another one who sort of did the I'm perfect, and I don't do any of these things. And both of those, I giggled inside. I didn't offer too much more to either of them, but that lets me know they were doing it the most right. So most humans will be like, yeah, I can see. Oh, I can see it. And the good News about when we can see these behaviors and patterns is that that is when we have the power to shift them. So in 25 years, there was only two people that literally left my presence unable to.
Cassie Kellner [00:09:11]:
Self reflect any way.
Christine Brondyke [00:09:12]:
Yeah. Have any self reflection. And so I knew all that. Just continue to do it for, for, you know, however long they do it, years, months, days, whatever. But, but 99.9% of us learn it and go, oh my gosh. And once we can see any aspect of it, that also gives us the power to, to change things. And that's what I'm really about is supporting people, teams, groups, couples, still, whoever it is that I'm working with, really help empower them in a very short period of time to create change. Because ultimately, what are we doing if we're getting coaching? You know, people are investing time and money. They want to create something different, something that works better. And that's what I'm about. And I love when things can go as fast as those people want to go. Right. So not, I'm not against therapy. It's just for me personally, when, when I did therapy, it was years of actually talking about the same pattern within the drama triangle construct. And so nothing was shifting. I just would go and bore my therapist for another hour and then come back the next week and it would still be the same thing. So I really love this tool. It's. It's one of the most important tools I've ever learned, ever applied to my own life, and then I get to share it.
Cassie Kellner [00:10:32]:
So what are. I can't wait for this. What are the three points to the drama triangle?
Christine Brondyke [00:10:40]:
Okay, so imagine. And I can, I can send you the PDF. So if anybody that's listening on your listeners want to receive that PDF, it'll make it a little bit easier.
Cassie Kellner [00:10:52]:
I love.
Christine Brondyke [00:10:53]:
But imagine a triangle that's drawn with one point down, facing down. So you've got the two points across from each other at the top, and then the bottom point pointing down. And I draw the triangle specifically that way. And so each point is a behavior. And I typically start out describing one of the top points, which I call the villain. Cartman called that base the persecutor. And the persecutor was a fine word. People can remember villain better and the other ones that we changed. And so if you think of villain behavior, imagine yourself, you're standing on the base. Like if we were to put the triangle on the floor like a baseball diamond, and you're standing on villain, then you're looking at the World through a particular lens, through a certain perception. And that perception is sort of a villainous persecutor, persecutorial perception. It's looking through the lens of who screwed up, who do I blame? Who. Who. Like, that's not done properly. There's a lot of finger pointing, a lot of judging, a lot of critiquing, criticizing, finding fault, blame. All of these behaviors kind of live on the base of villain, and the villain has sort of a physical demeanor to it. So often when people are in villain, even they won't realize they're doing it. They'll actually lean forward. They may scrunch their eyebrows, and they may literally put. I mean, this is sort of the classic Karen at this point. You know, it's like, it's. It's like you're. You built a fence on the wrong side, or you didn't pick up your dog poop or whatever. It's such a classic posture. And I'm somatically trained. And so what that means is we always incorporate what the body is doing when we're learning about these patterns. Because sometimes we've been doing it for so long, the way our brain works, it won't have a lot of awareness. It just. It's like default. It's like, this is my default programming, so this is the way it is, and this is the way I live. And. And. And the problem with default is there's not a lot of awareness in our brain in those moments that we could change anything.
Cassie Kellner [00:13:26]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:13:26]:
So it's like, yeah, I'm gonna yell at you because you're an idiot.
Cassie Kellner [00:13:29]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:13:30]:
And that's sort of the. The essence of villain is looking through a lens with a perception of somebody screwed up. Yeah, somebody's at fault.
Cassie Kellner [00:13:42]:
They live there.
Christine Brondyke [00:13:44]:
Yeah, they live there. And it's very common once you introduce more than one person, especially, like, in a work environment where I'll be focused on other people and how they're doing it wrong. But we can do any of these behaviors, these bases toward myself. So I can also. God, I'm an idiot. I can't believe I did. I screwed up so bad. That was just the dumbest thing ever. So I can certainly criticize myself and gosh, have I, you know, over the years.
Cassie Kellner [00:14:13]:
Are you kidding?
Christine Brondyke [00:14:14]:
But. But we think when. When we're creating dynamics with. With other people, it's often a pointing the finger at somebody else. So that's the first space. It's. It's just the classic blamer, criticizer, fault finder. And often you did It. Yeah, not me. You did it. Right. So that's one base. And then if we were to jump over directly across from that, then we have the hero base. And the hero is such a fascinating behavior because most of us, I would say 99% of us, grew up in environments where there was a lot of drama triangle behaviors, a lot of drama triangle patterns. And we as humans living in these drama triangle environments are actually kind of conditioned to be heroes. So the hero also leans forward, much like the victim posture or the villain posture does. But instead of a finger pointing, it's very much. Imagine an outstretched hand. What can I do for you? Oh, you look like you're struggling. Let me take that on for you. Oh, ordering didn't get done, don't worry about it. I've got it under control. I'll stay late, even. I'll. It's fine. I. I don't have anything going on. I'm. I'm probably. I don't even need to sleep till 11pm what do you need? Right. So it's very much a leaning forward, but instead of attacking or. Or pointing fingers, it's, how can I help you? And we get a lot, particularly women get a lot of conditioning to be helpful, to be nice, to be caretakers, to be really invested in how other people are doing and how can I help you do even better? Right. So the world would say, well, what's wrong with that? Isn't that how we're supposed to do it? We're supposed to be helpful, we're supposed to be caring, we're supposed to be caretakers. To which I would say, yes. We have within us the desire to be nurturing, to be kind, to be caring. You'll know you're stuck and doing it on the triangle when it creates conflict.
Cassie Kellner [00:16:37]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:16:38]:
So we do this helpful behavior, and then I give you more, and then, oh, you need more money. Oh, take my spleen. It's fine. It's extra. And then I'll later go, you know, I give and I give and I give.
Cassie Kellner [00:16:54]:
Yes.
Christine Brondyke [00:16:55]:
And where's mine? When are they going to give back to me now. Right. That hero behavior has really sort of created a resentment.
Cassie Kellner [00:17:05]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:17:06]:
And so when I'm really giving, what's that?
Cassie Kellner [00:17:09]:
A level of burnout there that hits of like, I can't give anymore.
Christine Brondyke [00:17:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. People will literally and figuratively die on the triangle trying to elicit these behaviors, which the world said, this is how you get by. This is how you survive. And that's usually when people will find it is they're at some level of burnout or they've been exerting and working within this triangle system for so long. This leads us to our third base and why I always draw it at the bottom of the triangle. Both villain and hero base behaviors are so exhausting that at the end of the day, most of us will fall. And where the posture is forward with the other two, victim is very much a collapsed. Oh, my God. Stick a fork in me. I'm done. I'm dead. I can't do anymore. So it's a place of collapse. It's looking through the lens of powerlessness. I can't help them. I can't help myself. I'm powerless. Nothing's changing. I give up. Victim behavior is very much a behavior of collapse, exhaustion. And we can do that a bunch of different ways. In fact, we can do unique to individuals will do each base sort of unique to us. Right. So my I do villain, but my villain, I don't love conflict. So my villain is pretty mild. It's pretty like an eye roll, like an internal, like, oh, my God, what an idiot. But I wouldn't really say it out loud too much. My hero, huge in terms of behavior. I grew up very much learning, be a cheerleader, be proactive, be helpful, be of service. You know, all these things. And I really did work to. To do that. But then I had that burnout.
Cassie Kellner [00:19:11]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:19:11]:
And. And. And yes, I went to victim. Like, oh, my God. I. How much more do I have to do to help them? But ultimately, I would go back to villain. And then, you know, think things like, they're just taking advantage of me. They're just selfish. They just take and take and take. And so as you can see just in sort of the description of it, that while we may have a favorite base, we end up dancing all of them. And it works. These behaviors are important in that they all did help us survive. So the drama triangle is a tool of survival, and we'll get through the day. I will get through the day because I'll be pushing and willpower and heroing my way, and then I'll be mad, and that'll give me some adrenaline, and I'll rage clean or whatever I'm gonna do. And then. And then I'll collapse in exhaustion, and then I'll get up the next day, and I'll do it again. Yes. When we invite another person into this is why I love the art and science of relationship is those folks, whoever we're inviting in, have their survival skills rooted in the triangle. And then what happens is we'll just. Well, it's like a game of twister. We'll just go round and round. I'll be on victim when you're on hero. I'll be on villain when you're on victim, and then we're gonna just dance around. In fact, one of the best ways to really get an aha around the triangle is to consider if I am a hero, if I'm exhibiting and living hero behaviors, how would I do that if I don't have a victim to save?
Cassie Kellner [00:21:02]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:21:04]:
And if I believe I'm a victim in any moment, if I'm really feeling wronged, it's not fair. I don't have power. It's true. I really don't have power. How can I feel that way unless I have a villain who's sort of bullying me or pushing me in a way that takes away my power? And as a victim, I'll 100% look for a hero who's going to save me. I can't save me, so I need somebody else to save me. And so we actually, without realizing it, will attract people. So if I run a lot of hero, guess what? I'm going to attract in my life a lot of victims who need help, because how else am I gonna help them?
Cassie Kellner [00:21:50]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:21:51]:
Right. And then when they don't help all the way, when they don't actually pull themselves up by their bootstraps, when they don't actually create a shift, then I'll probably go to villain and I'll say, you're useless.
Cassie Kellner [00:22:05]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:22:05]:
What is wrong with you?
Cassie Kellner [00:22:06]:
You know, I've been trying to help you.
Christine Brondyke [00:22:09]:
Yeah.
Cassie Kellner [00:22:10]:
As a hero.
Christine Brondyke [00:22:11]:
Yeah. And then you can even have two feet on one different base. So you could have a foot on hero and a foot on victim. And I call that the martyr. Like, I'm gonna. I'm. I'm gonna die trying to save you. And oh, my gosh, you know, there's so many of us that run that. But also a foot on villain and a foot on a hero, I call the rebel. So there are times when in survival, you know, somebody said, hey, you need to go do that. And then I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that. And I'm sort of criticizing the plan or the option at the same time that in rebellion, the hero gets activated because I'm actually in resistance mode, kind of like fight mode. And it's like, you're not going to be the boss of me. And so literally, we can play out some of These very old times. Old, you know. You know, my mom says I was three when I, you know, put my hands on my hips and said, you're not the boss of me.
Cassie Kellner [00:23:15]:
Right.
Christine Brondyke [00:23:16]:
So the rebel was strong, you know, in me all the way back then.
Cassie Kellner [00:23:20]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:23:21]:
And. And, yeah. So these, you know, and when we're talking about the work environment and the ortho world in particular, there are unique patterns within those systems. Right. So many of the doctors that I work with are heroes with just, like a flavor, just like a touch to, like, a medium amount of perfectionism, which often comes off as critical and villainous.
Cassie Kellner [00:23:48]:
Sure.
Christine Brondyke [00:23:49]:
And when you have a head in that environment, who's running those two bases? Often, what's the base that's left is you'll get employees who feel underappreciated, underpaid, undervalued, and they feel like victims of this, you know, doctor who's very strong in. I'm here to help, and I'm gonna take this business and make it run. And. And. And then ultimately those doctors can end up in victim. And God, I don't have the staff I need. Nobody's showing up. They come in late. And so you can see that it's. It's. I have never gone into an environment where I can't quickly identify that there is triangle behavior. And then the fun for me is who's playing what role, and how was that valuable. So I think the one thing that really people, if they can see themselves and their environment as being on the triangle, the most important thing in the beginning is to start asking the big question, like, what was it good for? Because if we don't. If we can't identify that. So let. Let me give you an example. Most of us know that if we were to exhibit a little bit of victim behavior. Oh, I don't know how to do that.
Cassie Kellner [00:25:18]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:25:18]:
Oh. Oh. I was never trained on that. What will happen is somebody will come in and say, oh, probably a hero. I'll train you. Or don't worry, I'll take care of it. And so one thing that the victim mentality learns is I can get out of a lot of stuff.
Cassie Kellner [00:25:39]:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:25:41]:
And especially if we're caring a lot in other ways, that can be beneficial for a while. I can get out of blame. It wasn't me. Yeah, right. What's the benefit of being on hero? Everybody loves us, man. We fix things. We take care of things. We're overworking. We're actually out of balance, doing too much.
Cassie Kellner [00:26:05]:
Yeah. So I have to tell you Christine, this is when I had this moment when you explained this to me. Being a consultant at the time and even now continuing to be an ortho coach, I fall into hero pretty much my entire consulting coaching career, and I fall into villain when I am trying to teach efficiency. And the team is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And there's resistance to change. And then I go back into hero once they realize this efficiency is really working for them. Right. But they can live in victim. The team members could potentially live in victim because they're like, how dare you make us change this. The orthodontist will Into a villain. Because they're like, how dare you bring this person in? We're doing just fine. Right. And. And then I live in hero, where I'm like, no, you guys, look at this beautiful thing and how much more efficient I'm going to make you. And then that feels really good to my ego. Right?
Christine Brondyke [00:27:08]:
Yes.
Cassie Kellner [00:27:09]:
But then I can flip quickly. And so I had this moment when you were explaining this to me years ago.
Christine Brondyke [00:27:17]:
Yeah.
Cassie Kellner [00:27:17]:
And I was like, oh, my goodness, this is wild. I. I have lived here in this triangle for my entire career, even as a team member in an orthodontic practice. And, you know. Right.
Christine Brondyke [00:27:33]:
Who's super young.
Cassie Kellner [00:27:35]:
And I'm like, oh, I'm so eager. I will, like, I'll do anything to, you know, and I'll help train. And I'm trying to excel in my career, and then somebody doesn't do something. Right. And now I'm a victim, and they're the villain. And then another who's like, my bestie on the team is my hero, because she's validating all of this wildness that I'm saying. And it. Christine, I. I still. I still have these reactions.
Christine Brondyke [00:28:04]:
Yeah.
Cassie Kellner [00:28:04]:
And then I have a mom and a sister, and we have lived in this drama triangle my entire life. If they were on this, they'd be laughing so hard, thinking of all the moments that we have all lived in. Victim, hero, villain, over and over. And I'm 40 years old. We've been forever for 40 years.
Christine Brondyke [00:28:24]:
Well, that's the crazy thing is that when we took a look back at these learned behaviors, and they are learned behaviors, and they are steeped in a belief of this is how you stay alive.
Cassie Kellner [00:28:37]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:28:38]:
These are survival skills. So we're not really quick to want to give them up. But what we learn when we look back is most humans are learning these behaviors by age 5.
Cassie Kellner [00:28:48]:
Oh, geez.
Christine Brondyke [00:28:49]:
Before we even get to kindergarten, we've already started to identify. I'M mommy's big girl helper. Here, mommy. Here's the diaper. Here, mommy. And then I'm a villain, right? Like, I remember when my youngest wanted a cookie, and he started out like, mommy, can I have a cookie, please? And he's learned before he's even five years old, if I'm cute and I'm sweet and I'm endearing, I'm probably gonna get what I want. Any. Probably did, right? And then I said no to the cookie, and then he went right to victim.
Cassie Kellner [00:29:20]:
But mama, right? I said please, Right?
Christine Brondyke [00:29:24]:
And then I said no, and. Right, exactly. And then I said no again. And then he's, oh, I hate you. You never give me a cookie when I'm hungry, right? And so it's like, I'll never forget that moment when I went, oh, my God, He's. He's not even five. And he's learned these behaviors to try and get what he wants, right? And in his mind, in that moment, a cookie was life or death. You know, he's going to starve to death.
Cassie Kellner [00:29:50]:
I have to admit to you, I've never thought of this in the aspect of my kids. They're four and six. I can think of so many scenarios now that you just said that.
Christine Brondyke [00:30:02]:
Yeah, they're learning it, and it's fine. You know, I was a little bit horrified when I saw in my kid because I learned it when he was a newborn. And so in my mind, I went to the triangle, and I'm like, oh, no, I'm a terrible mother. How did I not, you know, pass on these important skills? You know? And the reality is, if anybody listening to this takes this away, it'll be the most important thing. It doesn't matter if we do the triangle. It's simply an action to try and get legitimate needs met. So it doesn't matter if we're doing it. What matters is if it starts to run us, that we can't think outside of the triangle, that I only have three options. Because once you're stuck in that, you're stuck until you can create, right? So I always say, oh, your kids are doing it great. They're going to be your best teachers. Because what happens when you've got a whiny kid and they don't stop whining for two hours? You're gonna start to feel like a victim of their victim, right? Of their whining. Then you're gonna go to villain and be like, hey, that's enough of that. You know? And then what do I gotta give you, like, literally popsicles, like, what do you need so that you'll stop, right? And. And it's fine. It's fine that we do the triangle. If you beat yourself up for being on the triangle, that's a villain move, and it just makes you more stuck.
Cassie Kellner [00:31:35]:
Wow. Wow.
Christine Brondyke [00:31:39]:
Yeah. So the. The key is to go, oh, okay. It's here. And it's here for a good reason. It's here for me to learn. This is a learning tool, and if you can catch it and you go, oh, I just tried to hero my kid to be quiet. I just tried to yell at my kid to be quiet. And now I am sucking my own thumb in the corner because I feel ran Like. Like. Like they're in charge, Right? Oh, those are the three.
Cassie Kellner [00:32:13]:
Okay.
Christine Brondyke [00:32:14]:
And that lets me know. I'm trying to get a legitimate need met. What is a legitimate need? A legitimate need is something that we are meant to have, that we want it because we're meant to have it. But the way we're going about it, using triangle behaviors actually pushes what we want away. So the triangle becomes a tool of repulsion. And I think about not just repulsion, like, you get away from me, like, I'm repulsed. But think about a magnet. When you have a magnet of the same polarities and they repel each other, no amount of pushing. So it's like, think about it this way. No amount of heroing, no amount of blaming, no amount of victim and whining and crying in your soup is gonna change these things. The way you really fundamentally want accidentally will push it away or intentionally. It's set up so that we're accidentally trying to get what we really, truly need in a way that pushes it away from us. That's the frustration.
Cassie Kellner [00:33:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can just visualize this pattern in so many practices. I'm sure people listening to this right now have had so many moments of like, oh, my gosh. I do this because there's massive teams here, right? There's orthodontists, there's multi orthodontist, you know, doctor practices where you can be the hero, you can be the villain, you can be the victim. I mean, it's so mindful for teams. When you introduce this to teams, Christine, like, to Ryan's team, Dr. McComb, did they have a moment of like, oh, my goodness, Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:34:13]:
I can say this because he actually went to do a big speech with hundreds of orthodontists and featured the triangle in my work with them. So I can. Because normally, I would keep it confidential. The first thing he said when I taught the triangle was, oh no, I am such a hero. And. And it was great because you literally could. I could literally see light bulbs. And. And the cool thing about these light bulbs is when they start going off, it's like. And not just at work. Right. And so everywhere that.
Cassie Kellner [00:34:52]:
That's what happened to me.
Christine Brondyke [00:34:53]:
Everywhere.
Cassie Kellner [00:34:53]:
It was like my whole life flashed before my eyes, and I was like, oh, my. Because, like, let me tell you, teenage Cassie was so dramatic, I can't even tell you.
Christine Brondyke [00:35:04]:
Well, we all are. And that's. Yeah, we all are.
Cassie Kellner [00:35:07]:
I mean, I have childhood best friends. Christine. I grew up in a very small town in Northern California. My childhood best friends have been my best friends since I was five years old. We are still best friends. Yeah. We have, like, this core group that we know each other through the good, the bad, and the ugly. And it's a beautiful thing. We've gone through things that I don't think others can even compare to. We've gone through parents, divorces together. We've. I mean, all of it. And we're in our 40s now, and we still have this relationship, and now our children have these relationships. But the drama triangle in that friendship. Oh, yeah, I had a moment where I was like, wow.
Christine Brondyke [00:35:54]:
Yeah. I think it sort of begs the question when people are introduced to it for the first time and they have a big light bulb moment. It sort of begs the question, what would I be doing with all my creative energy if I wasn't doing this? And that, to me, is some of the most exciting kinds of questions that can come out of this. Because it takes a lot of energy to run the triangle.
Cassie Kellner [00:36:27]:
Yeah, absolutely. And. And. And this brings me to this, too. What happens? Because this happens. I mean. Oh, my gosh. What happens if this is very hard? If people can't self reflect, they live here forever. I mean.
Christine Brondyke [00:36:44]:
Oh, well, remember, in 25 years, only two people told me they didn't do it at all. So I don't really find very many people who can't self reflect. The best way to get somebody to self reflect is to listen to their triangle story.
Cassie Kellner [00:37:02]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:37:03]:
Because if, as a listener, I can say, oh, you worked so hard, you've worked so hard to bring your practice along and you've onboarded and you learned. Learned marketing and employment law, and you didn't just get your, you know, your dentist doctorate and then go to ortho school. You opened a practice, and then you had to learn about accounting and you had to learn about hiring and managing people and you've worked so hard. And when they can be seen in that hero kind of mentality, what will happen is they'll have a breakdown. But it's the best kind of breakdown. What it means in my world, in the coaching world, is when somebody's truly heard and seen and they start to cry or they go, yes, yes, I have worked hard. It's like the bricks of hero that got them there start to fall. But the good news is what's really true underneath can be revealed. And so sometimes they'll have an emotion, sometimes they'll have an epiphany. But I'm not trying to get them to change at all. I'm just there to say, I hear you, I see you. That must be. And I might even ask a question, how exhausted are you?
Cassie Kellner [00:38:24]:
Yes.
Christine Brondyke [00:38:25]:
You have no idea how exhausted I am. Right. Or if they're really been stuck in victim, I might say I can really hear how much you're struggling and how you have tried so many different things, and in your mind, nothing has worked and nothing. And then you start to get scared maybe that nothing's going to work. You know, I've had a practice where she was down to one employee, and then that employee, knowing that they were the only one, blackmailed her and said, if you don't get not blackmailed. Is that the right word? Kind of strong armed her. If you don't give me a huge raise, I leave too. And, you know, so these are. And that's a great example of a villain move. Right. So it's like, hey, she's a victim and she's not really a victim, but in those moments, feeling like a victim.
Cassie Kellner [00:39:16]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:39:16]:
And then how's. How are you gonna be a victim without a bully? Or in this case, somebody who's, you know, gonna capitalize on that victimhood. And I've seen, in 25 years, I've seen. I'll never say I've seen it all, but I have seen some really heinous ways that this has played out. And those are actually easier because when they get so exaggerated when the victim is so large, when the villain is so large, when the hero behavior is so big, you can't miss it. The harder ones are the subtle ones.
Cassie Kellner [00:39:52]:
Sure.
Christine Brondyke [00:39:53]:
The. Oh, I. I guess I didn't know that. You know, it's like, how do you. I mean, that's so subtle. Or my subtle, like, eye roll, you know, it's like, how do you catch those? So, yeah, I think to really hear people in Their triangle story is one of the first ways to help them have self awareness. Because. Because I'm just wondering how. How does that work? Because when they're heard, they can see it.
Cassie Kellner [00:40:31]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:40:31]:
Somebody else saw it. You know, that's the value of a coach.
Cassie Kellner [00:40:34]:
Yes.
Christine Brondyke [00:40:35]:
I can't see it myself. And then so the coach comes and says, well, here's what I see. Oh, you know, oh, my God.
Cassie Kellner [00:40:41]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:40:41]:
And how valuable that can be.
Cassie Kellner [00:40:43]:
You're so good at that, Christine, in your coaching. I mean, we could spend two hours on all of this because, I mean, even when you and I catch up on the phone, it's like, I. I can't get enough. And we just like, you know, go talk through it because, you know about orthodontics now, which is such a beautiful thing. And I've lived in this world for 21 years. And so, you know, you. You've seen it. You've seen. You've seen the beauty in it in the. In the shift where people do have those aha moments. Those are my favorite. I mean, and I love to feel it too. And I did feel it that day, let me tell you. I mean, it's been how many years? Probably five or six years now since.
Christine Brondyke [00:41:26]:
Just before COVID So it was the end of 2019.
Cassie Kellner [00:41:30]:
You introduced this to me. And then COVID hit. I mean, you want to talk about drama triangle in the year 2020.
Christine Brondyke [00:41:37]:
Well, and that, you know, that's such a good point, Cassie, because it's really important as people hear about this, it's not just in our family lives. We didn't just get stewed in it when we were growing up. We're not just passing it down to our kids, because that's what we've learned. It's not just in work environments. We can look out at the big picture. And the way COVID was handled or the way things are handled now is all drama triangle. And whether it's listening to the news. Right. And the news isn't the. Literally isn't the news anymore. They changed a law, I think, back in the 70s, where it was literally the news legally had to be off the triangle. It had to be neutral. You had to present both sides. So if you took like a, hey, this is a terrible thing you had to present why it might not be so terrible. Maybe there's some good in it. It had to be balanced. And they. They got rid of that law in the 70s, and then it became very capitalistic for money. The more clicks and what gets more clicks, literally and figuratively than drama. Right. I mean, so, so by necessity, if people were going to compete and this is, you know, this is huge in terms of where are we going in the future? How would we do it if it's not going to be on the triangle and clicks for money? Because when we're competing for clicks and it's dramatic, it's like the actual. I can't look away from the car accident.
Cassie Kellner [00:43:16]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:43:17]:
It captures my attention. And the drama triangle, like those environments are run on adrenaline. And again, when I say the drama triangle distills down to survival skills. Adrenaline was the most important survival chemical in our body. If there's a threat, it allows us to run. Right. Or fight. And so we get hits of adrenaline. Believe it or not, even as a 2, 3, 4 year old running that triangle, certainly we do as adults. And you add coffee to that, you add a cigarette to that or whatever. And it's like we have really honed our ability to run on amphetamines to stay awake. Because the triangle is exhausting in nature.
Cassie Kellner [00:44:10]:
Right.
Christine Brondyke [00:44:10]:
So now we've got that push pull of. I'm exhausted. Okay. Where's my coffee? Right. Where's my. How am I going to get motivated for the day? And we just do that, this kind of thing. And it's no wonder when I go into any group environment. How exhausted are you?
Cassie Kellner [00:44:29]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:44:30]:
Because we are doing. And I do want to highlight this, even when we're doing the triangle, we're doing the very best we can with what we know.
Cassie Kellner [00:44:40]:
Yeah, yeah. And. And you know, working with multigenerational teams now and the way that we learn and our behaviors and when we were born and how we grew up and all of this really, that's why this, this is so mind blowing to me because it doesn't matter who you are. And I learned about this five or six years ago and I'm. I still land in it. I'm human, I still do it. But I have so much more self awareness now that you, the way that you explain it to me and you know, I could go victim, villain, hero at any point in the day, whether it's in my coaching role or at home or as a mom or as a friend or a neighbor. So, you know, I think the thing that has helped me the most is recognizing it.
Christine Brondyke [00:45:32]:
Yeah.
Cassie Kellner [00:45:32]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:45:33]:
Because it's in the recognition that then you've actually stepped out of the triangle. That's the first move to go, oh, there it is. And if you can do that without blame, then it's truly a Clean off the triangle. Oh, there it is. There's me doing the nobody loves me. I worked so hard on this, or I've heroed myself or I heroed somebody else. And to have that moment of insight feels so important because it is, in my opinion, one of the most life affirming moments of all the things that we really want as humans. I talked about we're trying to get legitimate needs met, but we're doing it on the triangle. Well, what are those needs? Freedom, creativity, connection, abundance, gratitude. Like all the things that if you asked a human, what's heaven made of, right. If you could have the life you want, what would people say? I'd want peace, I'd want freedom, I'd want creativity, I'd want to play. Right? And some people, they'll say, I want to travel. To me, that's a form of play, it's a form of exploration. And I'd have connection. That's relationship off the triangle where instead of the magnet, two polarities pushing each other apart, one gets flipped. Now I can connect, right? So it's like, oh, I longed for this. So it's a simple tool, but it sort of highlights the most important aspects of life. We're trying to get what we really, really want. You know, victims feel powerless, but what they really want is to feel powerful.
Cassie Kellner [00:47:25]:
Yeah, yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:47:27]:
And villain might be finding fault in criticism. And often what they really want is to feel heard about what they really want.
Cassie Kellner [00:47:40]:
Yeah.
Christine Brondyke [00:47:40]:
You know, I was talking with a, an ortho manager. So I think he's, I think he's got a great title and it's way better than manager, but I can't think of what it is right now. But he's overseeing all of the, all of the teams. And he said, somebody came to me and said, that supervisor. It really bothers me that that supervisor tells me to come into their office to speak with them. I think that's rude and unprofessional. So it's a great little mini villain move, right? That supervisor is unprofessional. That's a criticism. And how they're going about their request to have me come into their office is rude. Why was that their opinion? Because they didn't ask, they didn't say, would you please come into my office? They said, come on into my office.
Cassie Kellner [00:48:47]:
Oh, interesting.
Christine Brondyke [00:48:48]:
That's how subtle it can get. And they were so annoyed by this supervisor's demand, let's call it, to go to their office that they skipped talking to the supervisor and went to a manager about this.
Cassie Kellner [00:49:03]:
Wow.
Christine Brondyke [00:49:04]:
Yeah. So that's a great example of like, what a waste of energy.
Cassie Kellner [00:49:10]:
Sure.
Christine Brondyke [00:49:11]:
Right on everybody. But if they know the triangle and they could catch it. Now, sometimes they don't. One of the things that I advocate, because the manager's like, how am I supposed to handle these kinds of little things? And I said, well, what you want to do is you want to educate the whole team that if they can catch that they're on villain, that that often means they need to shift into making a request and they have to go direct to the person they're upset with. They can't skip. It's why the military is so strict about chain of command, because it's efficient, but you also have to develop those skills. So the. So the invitation was to have this complainer, the villain, go directly to the supervisor and say, would you be willing to invite me into your office when you want to speak with me instead of telling me to come? I receive that well and I really want to feel, yeah, I'd love to feel invited. So if you would be willing now, they could say, no. They could say, no, I'm going to say it how I want and you can just deal with it. But often if we use our creative energy instead of complaining about how they did it wrong and they were unprofessional to use our creative energy and to say, would you be willing to do this instead? Often people are willing, yeah, sure. I didn't realize that was. That was like nails on a chalkboard to you. I'd love to just say, hey, would you be willing to come talk to me at 3 o' clock?
Cassie Kellner [00:50:47]:
That's a really big moment, though, Christine, because I. In the workplace in general, even in orthodontics for young team members who feel like they don't maybe have the authority or the power or feel empowered enough to. To have that conversation, I think what they would find is that there's so much more respect in going to the person and saying, hey, would you mind asking me to do it this way next time? As opposed to this way in a very kind way, as opposed to then starting the drama triangle and going in a roundabout way to get what they want and need. And it's, in my opinion, it's very difficult to come back from those situations right away. Like, then you start something that takes a lot of time and energy to then fix, sit down, work through, as opposed to just going directly to the individual in a kind way. Right. We have to make that very clear. You know, you can't come at the Individual, you know, but I, I, that is such a powerful moment. And I'm hopeful that people will take something from this in just that simple scenario.
Christine Brondyke [00:52:00]:
Right. So you take what is a complainer and somebody feeling like a victim of verbiage. Right. And then through this simple act of, hey, here's. Because it's an education. Instead of going to management.
Cassie Kellner [00:52:16]:
Yes.
Christine Brondyke [00:52:17]:
What we're going to advocate you do is go directly to that person and make a clear request. Kindness. You don't have to work hard to be kind off the triangle. We're naturally kind of. I don't want to hurt anybody. I don't want to. I'm not, I don't like demands made of me. I'm not going to make demands of you. I just know me and I hear invitations better than statements. And so if you're, if you're willing and I really speak a lot from this place of would you be willing? Because then that allows the receiver of whatever follows next to ask, am I willing?
Cassie Kellner [00:52:56]:
Yeah, it's.
Christine Brondyke [00:52:56]:
Am I willing?
Cassie Kellner [00:52:58]:
You know this, but I do a lot of DISC workshops and yes, people who land so valuable in the S category, which is steadiness, they live in hero because they really thrive off of harmony. So, you know, if there is a manager who is in an S category and they live in steadiness and harmony and not having to rough full feathers would probably have a really hard time looking at the team member and saying, why don't you directly go to the team member and have a conversation? They would rather say, I'll fix it for you.
Christine Brondyke [00:53:30]:
Exactly. Yeah. And the trap of that hero is I get to be the important one that fixed it, except for the fact that if it fixes it all, it only fixes for the short term. And then there will be another one that I'll have to fix and then another one that I'll have to fix. And that's where the fatigue comes in. Great example.
Cassie Kellner [00:53:52]:
Oh, Christine, Christine, I have taken up way too much of your time. I cannot thank you enough for being here and talking through this. I hope that everyone listening had as many, aha. Powerful moments that I did because I'm still so blown away by, by the drama triangle and all of those categories and everything you do. You're such a beautiful human, and I am just so honored that you are here with me and talking through this. I can't thank you enough.
Christine Brondyke [00:54:26]:
Thank you, Cassie. Well, you know, I think the world of you and your energy and your skills and the fact that you have moved into the coaching role and really have the supports to do the DISC work with folks. And it's all kind of versions of the same thing, bringing awareness to our patterns because when we have that, we have the ability and the power to shift things. So what big work you're doing and it's always a pleasure to speak with you.
Cassie Kellner [00:54:55]:
Thank you, Christine.
Christine Brondyke [00:54:56]:
Yeah, my pleasure.
Cassie Kellner [00:54:58]:
Thank you for joining me on The Bloom Effect, where we keep it real, keep it growing, and always keep it team first. If today's episode sparked something for you, an idea, a shift, or just a reminder that you're not alone, take a second and share it with your team or a fellow ortho leader. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss a convo. And if you're loving the show, leave a review. It helps more practices. Find us and join the movement. And if you're ready to bring this kind of energy into your practice, visit DiscoverEverbloom.com to learn more about working together. Until next time, keep leading with heart, keep building with intention, and keep blooming right where you're planted.
